S2 E15: Pre-Purchase Exams for OTTBs: Myths, Must-Knows & Mistakes to Avoid with Dr. Ashley Taylor (Part 2)

S2 E15: Pre-Purchase Exams for OTTBs: Myths, Must-Knows & Mistakes to Avoid with Dr. Ashley Taylor (Part 2) (Transcript)
[00:00:00]
Hi, everyone. And welcome back to OTTB OnTap. I'm Niamh. And I'm Emily. Hey, Niamh. What's on tap today?
This is part two of our episode with.
Ashley Taylor DVM. Co-owner of sports medicine, associates of Chester county and owner of premier rehabilitation center, twin ponds, farm, and Carpentersville PA.
If you're tuning in to this episode and having listened to part one with Ashley, I encourage you to go back and listen to that episode where we talk about Ashley's background and experiences with off the track, thoroughbreds and detailed information about her wellness center and rehabilitation of common injuries found with off the track.
Thoroughbreds. Now we're going to switch gears and talk about pre-purchase exams.
Which You know,, it's a hot topic think you're actually the first person to really delve into this, this topic with us. Ooh, okay. And we were very eager to have a veterinarian on, but we weren't sure, obviously there's.
It's a lot of opinions, in the, equine world. For sure. Well, I'm gonna give you mine and mine will probably be different than, we always say on this podcast, your mileage may vary. So we have the benefit, Emily and I both of being on both sides of the, the process at different periods in our life and same Yeah.
Witnessed a lot of, pre-purchase exams and we have our own opinions as well and, and which are sure will differ from some people in our audience, but. What's your basic philosophy when conducting them, particularly for off the track thoroughbreds? Yeah, so this is huge. I always tell people I will not pass or fail a horse.
I don't think that's fair. I tell people When I do a pre purchase for them, you're basically paying me to do a risk assessment, just like you would if you were going to purchase stock options and figure out what's high risk and what's low risk. And then I kind of separate that into two categories from there and that's kind of risk for intended use and risk for resale, because those can be completely different for particular.
item depending on what you're talking about. And I do it this way because it's really going to depend on how risk averse A buyer is having, as you both know, some people are really risk averse, whether it comes to anything in life, including purchasing horses. And some people are like, yeah, hack I'll take a risk.
No problem. I'm like, oops. Like how do I wire the money? Right. Exactly. We are all made up differently and made from our past experiences. And so you'll find too that some people are happy to take a risk on a horse that maybe has something wrong with the joint versus they won't take a risk on the back because they had a horse with a bad back.
So you'll find that too. It's a variety. And so that's where I always say, I'm never going to tell you whether you should or shouldn't. buy a horse because that's your decision. It's not mine, but I will tell you, this is what I found on the exam. And these are kind of the categories of risk that I would put them in for what you want to do with the horse.
And if you want to sell the horse. So that's kind of my basic philosophy. And I think that's really important because there are so many horses out there too, that. Intended use is so important and not every horse is going to have to jump for a living or have to go to the Olympics. Right.
And so I think that has to be, especially with thoroughbreds, you're looking at horses that have had careers and have had mileage, usually at a young age. You have to take into consideration what you want to do with the horse. And I think it is hard because of how litigious our society is for veterinarians.
When we have a lot of these symposium and continuing education things they'll have seminars on pre purchase exams, how to conduct pre purchase exam, how to basically cover yourself from. Getting sued or being liable for things that go wrong. And unfortunately that has made a lot of veterinarians you know, gun shy and sometimes just delivering their gut opinion on something because they can't say you know what, this is probably going to be fine because if it's not fine, then you can turn around and come back.
So my favorite kind of, Pre purchase to do is one for one of my regular clients because you can kind of have that open dialogue and I can feel comfortable maybe talking more for through experience or I think this is going to be fine or I don't think this is going to be fine.
Kind of a conversation versus someone that is calling from California and wants a bedding and I don't know that I do talk to them on the phone and we do have a series of questions we ask. But. I don't have any kind of relationship with them. So I think that a lot of veterinarians, that's the case.
Sometimes you're doing vettings for people that you don't know. I have just a very quick follow up question to that and you kind of Mention something about this, but is there anything that you from a thought process standpoint, do differently. If , say, a horse has had 80 starts versus a horse that's had 18 starts, in your mind, do you think any differently about the approach or is it you just go in with a blank slate of
I'm just going to get the history on the horse and go from there, all things being equal. Yeah, I definitely start with a blank slate on all horses and try not to have any kind of preconceived notions about them because every horse is different and You know, that's, I think, then one of your other questions that you had about, , the horse and assessing risk.
Some of that is, you know, is this a three year old sport horse prospect that was just broke and hasn't done anything? Or is this a three year old off the track thoroughbred that's [00:06:00] had , 20 starts and that does have to kind of come into play in your risk assessment. And sometimes to me that actually comes into play more favorably because you're looking now at a horse that's kind of proven athletically, maybe not in the sport is going to do.
versus a horse that is, maybe got 60 days under saddle that hasn't done anything yet. So, that can be a little bit in the favor of the thoroughbred, and I do like thoroughbreds that have raced, as long as they haven't had, severe damage to their joints or soft tissue structures, because those horses, have proven to me that they can stay in pretty intense training and withstand galloping at high speeds and the way that their body is constructed.
The way they move, the way they gallop, the way they use themselves, the way everything's put together is in a way that nothing's broken. So I think that's really positive. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you also mentioned something that I thought was interesting and just a little kind of anecdote, but when I used to sell horses.
As my job, I found so many times that if a buyer had had a previous horse that had a certain issue, that was like the one thing that you could not have on the person. It could be any random thing, but, if they had had a bowed tendon, this horse could not have a bowed tendon. If they'd had, you know, issues with its back, that was the thing.
So it's just kind of interesting. Yeah, that's definitely like I said, we're all made up from our previous experiences. Right. Like with horses, the reason why they're usually shopping for another horse is potentially because their other horse broke and that's the one thing they don't want to relive.
There's no guarantees, unfortunately, that they're not going to have to relive that even if things look okay. Yeah, that's a good point. How do you interpret findings like old injuries or conformational kind of quirks or Other than ideal confirmation, let's put it that way in context for their potential for a second career.
Yeah. So once again, I think I put it make it a risk assessment and that's going to depend on if it's a confirmation law abnormality of how confirmationally abnormal is it? Is there any evidence of soft tissue injury or joint changes or injury from that conformational abnormality?
There are a whole list of conformational abnormalities that we see in horses that say, oh, you know, is going to make it more predisposed to this or more predisposed to that. You know, I think mechanics are important and we know from experience that, yes, when you have a horse that isn't conformationally perfect, then you have different mechanical strain and that leads to different injury, but I think there are a lot of horses with small conformational abnormalities and even horses with large conformational abnormalities that go on and Do kind of amazing things and I think it's not necessarily a reason to, to pass on a horse as long as everything is checking out.
Okay. I think the old injury kind of depends on a couple of things. How old you are. Long ago, what the injury was, there are some structures that just in general tend to heal better than others how they're imaging currently. So I usually like to recheck those injuries, especially if it's a soft tissue injury, if you can ultrasound it.
And then the history, did it, bow a tendon a year ago, and it just went back and did its first novice event this past weekend. And, or, you know about its tendon. On the track and as a three year old and now it's 10 and it's been competing at the preliminary level so that is to me is a much lower risk than maybe a horse that had an injury not that long ago and it's kind of just through the initial rehab period but I think going back to that proven campaigner type horse versus the unproven campaigner.
That is going to kind of shift your risk assessment bar where if you have a horse that has had kind of some older injuries that have been rehabbed and it's competing at the level or maybe even the level above what you want to do, that would be a lower risk for a re injury versus maybe a younger horse that Has an old injury that's going novice, but you're buying it to be an intermediate or an advanced horse kind of right.
Yeah. So, yeah, all that risk assessment skill. I have a follow up to Emily's question, which is there say you're in the middle of doing a pre purchase exam and the client has ordered a series of standard radiographs. And you come across a finding that is a surprise to. The potential buyer.
So say like a condular repair or something like that. So you're going around, you're doing your x rays and you're like, Oh, there's a couple of screws in there. How do you go about explaining those types of injuries that heal very well and don't tend to be a problem down the road? How do you work with your potential buyers about findings that pop up like that that are kind of a surprise?
Yeah, so normally it's always great when the buyer and the seller are both there. Because then it's a little bit of an open dialogue. If the seller's not there, then I usually just and then I'll just kind of pause the exam and talk to them because the radiographs and the imaging are the most expensive part of the exam.
So I do try to be cognizant of people's money and if , I call them peek and shrieks. So if there's something like going on, yeah, something that like I'm finding is going to be a low risk kind of reporting then. I tend to just rock on, but you know, and that kind of a thing, that's a peek and shriek when you're [00:12:00] like, , oh, there's screws in there.
So yeah, at that point I just kind of stop and then you have that risk assessment talk right then and there and say, hi, like, we found this isn't, you know, wasn't evident from the clinical exam, but this is what we found on the radiographic exam. I'm pausing because. This is going to be something that would scare most people on radiograph, however.
These do tend to heal really well when they're surgically repaired, especially if there's not a step in the joint. Just going to have a conversation with them about it and say this is a pretty low risk thing, especially if you don't have any joint effusion, you don't have any positivity, deflection there's no arthritis in the joint.
The joint surface is smooth from what you can tell. Unfortunately, sometimes when they get repaired, there is a little step in the joint, so that can be a higher risk. thing for long term unsoundness, but when they're repaired well, they have a great prognosis and they're a very low risk thing for future unsoundness and that's been well documented.
And for me, I can feel pretty strong telling somebody that. And once again, now we're dealing with the buyer and how risk adverse they are. Oh, I don't know, I need to have my vet look at the x rays or I don't know, I need to think about it. There are some people. are especially if it was a client of mine that I have a relationship with, they'd say, okay, well then keep going if you're, if you think it's low risk.
So that is, , a little bit how that conversation would go and it can go obviously 16, 000 different ways. And I think every veterinarian's bedside manner is a little bit differently too. And that's okay. And. I tend to be more of an anti inflammatory type when I deliver information, so I try not to get people, , too worked up.
I always say it's a little bit like going to a psychic or something, where if you're someone who's a skeptic, you're going to go in and if the psychic says one wrong thing, then you're going to be like, well, they don't know what they're talking about.
Cause they said that 1 thing and that 1 thing wasn't true. And it's like, they latch on to the negative thing. And then it's like everything else doesn't even matter. Yeah. And sometimes I've done that just in my delivery of things. And then the. person who I'm talking to will come back and I'll say, Oh my gosh, that's the one thing you took away from everything I just told you.
So yeah, and it can be it's just super individual for, for every person. And yeah, but just open communication during the exam, especially if they're not there. And if there is a finding that is going to be a talking point, then I tend to just try to talk about that right away so that I'm not wasting any more time or money.
Especially if it's a, you know, that would be a low risk finding, but something obviously that would need to be talked about. But especially if it's a high risk finding, then I usually feel like it's my responsibility to discuss that if I can get a hold of the person right away just to make sure they're okay with me continuing the exam.
Or sometimes they. They're not, so yeah. And then are there common misconceptions that buyers have about off the track thoroughbreds during PPEs? I know we touched a little bit on the, the dreaded back. Yeah, I think the back is a big thing. And the cervical spine and neck is really becoming a new focus, it seems like the new back, but, but, but not in the sense, like I'll, I would probably buy a horse with it.
Kissing spines before I bought a horse with severe neck pathology, but it is just in the advancement of our imaging equipment that I kind of discussed tucked upon briefly earlier. We're just getting so much better at diagnosing problems that the horses have. And that's so that's can be really positive and sometimes really negative, especially when we're really Figuring out what, with our screening tools in the field, so using x ray and ultrasound, especially in a pre purchase setting, what is okay, what is not okay.
I think It's pretty easy to figure out what's kind of high risk and low risk. It's just more the gray area in the middle that I think people are still developing. And that's even some of the specialists because now that we have NECCT and we can compare that to radiographs, there's sometimes a lot going on that you can't necessarily see just with radiographs.
So, it can make it a little bit harder. To assess risk, I think, at least for me. So but yeah, it's very common now that people are screening necks as well as backs and maybe not in off the tracks of thoroughbreds. Some are, but especially in some of the younger, imported horses that are higher price point.
So yeah, unfortunately. And we're finding, about 50 percent of these horses are having changes in their neck. Just kind of similar, like 50%. People say 50%. There's a study. 49 or 50 percent of thoroughbreds have. So some degree of kissing spines and I think hormones are pretty similar, honestly, the amount of x rays I see, I think it's kind of all horses at this point.
So yeah. Yeah. That was actually my bar manager's question for you was to ask you how prolific it was across all breeds, not just thoroughbreds in pre purchase exams. I think that's a good metric for the audience and just for people to know about. Yeah. For sure. It is. It's, it's super prevalent.
I mean, we see it a lot. I have a client who imports a lot of Irish sport horses and actually have a couple of clients that do that. So, , I'm looking at just, three to four year old Irish sport horses probably over a hundred sets of x rays a year. And Some of [00:18:00] those have mild changes, but then they've already been screened by the vets in that country and from talking to the People who are in that country buying them They're saying at least half of them.
They're throwing out because they have kissing spines and they can't sell them to the US. So then they're kind of moving on. So it's a high number. Yeah. So then I think it does once again, kind of turn into the management game. And I think that is where we have to focus our efforts is how to manage some of these horses and a lot of them with mild radiographs, you know, I think it's hard to tell whether they're going to have issues or not.
And like I said, we have plenty with normal x raying backs that do have sore backs just from. Training. I'm sure that as a veterinarian, you can tell so much too about how the horse is moving, how it palpates, how it goes under saddle. Like there's just, to me as a Yeah. Someone who's not in the medical field, like horse
Yeah, yeah. Great. And it's back, right? The x-ray and has kissing spine. So yeah, I really guess less there. Yeah, it hasn't been proven. It's not necessarily a. What you see in radiographs doesn't necessarily line up with the clinical picture. And I think this is like going back to what I had said before about kind of.
risk for resale versus risk for use. And in my experience, unless the horse is like really severe changes, that would end, end, you know, obvious clinical problems during a vetting. Like we really are able to manage a lot of these horses but risk for resale, that goes up because of the whole.
Climate on kissing spines and kind of the horse community. You know, something might be a low risk for use and kind of a moderate risk for resale. That's a really good point. It depends if you're buying the horse because you want to produce it and you really love it or you're buying it to sell it in 60, 30, 60 days.
So if you're buying it to sell it 30, 60 days, like a moderate risk for resale is. It's going to probably cut into your profit margin versus I really love this horse and I want to take a risk on the back and you produce it and you know, it's going FDI level and the back has a bit of an issue. Then once again, we're going back to proven versus unproven horse.
So proven horse with a, not normal X ring back, no history of back pain or management needed, probably low risk for, at least that level and below. So it all kind of ties together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, a follow up to that is what advice would you give to someone considering purchasing an off the track thoroughbred, especially regarding the PPE process?
Yeah, so I think the first thing you can do is try to get as much information as you can from the seller. And some of the sellers are great and they have a lot of information, maybe they knew the horse on the track, they're friends with the trainer, they're friends with the exercise rider and they can tell you a lot about it.
Sometimes it's , well, I bought it off a video off of Facebook and I put 60 days into it, or. Whatever, now I'm selling it. So I think the more information that you can have to pass on to the vet, the better, because sometimes there's things that pop up in the horse's history that kind of might lead me down different paths of things that I would recommend as far as diagnostics go you can get the horses racing information online.
So it's always, good to see like how, how often did the horse race? Does it have any big breaks? And it's. race and career that might indicate that I had an injury or an issue. Just anything that you can look at the horse's weight, look at the horse's manure when you're there. Is it a good eater?
Is it a poor eater? Just like kind of makes you think does the devil search or we're going to have to manage that. Which once again, not necessarily a reason to not buy a horse, but when you buy this horse, you want to know what do I have to do to make it happy?
Keep it healthy. Right. Right. So next I think obviously. For a the vetting process. If you can go to the vetting that is like the best thing that you can do because a lot of the veterinarians are great and they want you to feel comfortable with your purchase and Or kind of kind of talk and educate if something comes up, they can show you if there's a finding on the leg, but it's just a more interactive process.
I find that a lot of the buyers feel more comfortable about their purchase, especially if they don't know me, if they can come and watch the exam and see the horse move and see. How positive or negative the horse's deflections. If they, some, you know, I say, Oh, this horse has an old splint, come feel this.
Versus just kind of me running through the things on the phone. And I try the best that I can to explain, but. It is different than I think kind of fully being there. If you can't be there, I'd say try to be available by phone so that you can kind of be a part of the process as needed. So if there is some lameness or some kind of peek and treat on the x rays, the vet can get ahold of you right away and you can kind of have those conversations right away instead of.
Leaving them there standing being like, well, I guess I'll keep going where I should stop. And then personally, there are specific radiographs that I think are helpful in assessing just some of the most common areas that we see. joint damage in racehorses. So I would talk to whatever that you have doing the exam, say, you know, I don't want to spend, or maybe you want to spend a million dollars in x rays and that's fine.
But maybe it's like, I want a good screening set just to kind of rule out some of the, The problem areas that you see most commonly and veterinarians will know, okay, well, we can kind of do these things. I do usually [00:24:00] recommend getting at least balancing films of their feet. So you can kind of start off on a positive you were going to say, good foot.
I was but yeah, shoeing wise, there aren't any changes that kind of need to be. Made right away. It's gonna help your farrier right away So I think the more involved you can be in the process the better and if there are any Especially if you're not going to be there if there are any things that are like I'm risk adverse to this or I really Can't do another horse with kissing spines or my horse had a suspensory injury And it's really important to me that I make sure this horse's suspensories look normal Just be really up front with the veterinarian that's doing the pre purchase so that they can Spend extra time, addressing that concern for you.
One thing I just wanted to come back to, and you mentioned at the very beginning of this episode, and we talk about this all the time on this podcast is the idea that maintenance is something that people feel is not part of the horse ownership process. And I think that you mentioned how maintenance is preventative in terms of injuries. Right. And so I think that this idea that you buy a horse and you do whatever it takes to make them happy to me, that equals maintenance. Cause I always think of maintenance as like, what kind of shoes does the horse need? What kind of, type of writing does it need?
Does it need Adaquan? Does it need, and we're trying really hard to make maintenance a good word and not a dirty word, because it's just such a crucial part of. Horse husbandry and ownership. And and you just see so many in search of ads that are like, can't need any maintenance.
And you're like, well, that's, that's crazy. Yeah, that is crazy. You know, horses need maintenance. I mean, that's maintaining them just like vehicles need maintenance. Just like you and I, you need to go to the doctor. You have to have your blood work taken. It's the same, of course, as like you're caring for a live animal that can't communicate with you in the language that you both speak and that you're, , usually utilizing for personal recreational use, competitive use.
So yeah, I feel like it's really important to have more of a preventative than like , in a proactive approach to taking care of that animal than . a reactive approach where you're like, well, now my horse is lame and I can't ride it and I need to figure out what's wrong with it so I can fix it so I can ride it.
So yeah. And I think, what every horse needs is going to be different depending on, the, the level of use and their age, maybe what they've done previously in their careers. But I think that your veterinarian can kind of help you come up with a really good protocol and I think that you probably will end up hopefully spending less money doing that up front than maybe having that reactive approach where now the horse is lame.
But yeah, maybe if you did balancing radiographs on it a couple times a year you could have realized that the hoof angle was changing and that we could have done something different with shoeing instead of So, you know, you get to a point , can't compensate and it's lame or, you know, things change so badly that it was putting stress on a certain soft tissue structure.
So, yeah. And I mean, I think that is kind of our duty as horse owners and, veterinarians that are employed by horse owners is to try to make these guys as happy and healthy as we can so that they can be, you know, Fun and good riding partners. And sometimes that takes more less, but yeah, I think maintenance is not a bad thing, especially, I think it's great when you know what the maintenance is, when you know what it takes to make the horse happy, that's going to feed.
Maybe these specific joints injected or this specific medication. And to me that is a whole lot of work done is getting a horse and then people say, Oh, this doesn't need anything. It's great. And then I start running into issues. That's a great point. Actually. Someone's already done the diagnostic work and figured out how to make the horse super comfortable for a job.
It's proven that it can do so. Yeah. Continue doing that. Yeah, so, and I think if you, if you own a horse and you think you're just going to, just get away with going about your business forever, you're going to hit a brick wall at some point. And so. You're better off to be proactive and kind of ask your vet What do you think this horse needs?
Does it need a joint supplement or does it need it's hocks injected or does it need? more diagnostics, does it need chewing changes and I think it's It's great to have your veterinary involved too, because if they never see that horse and now the first time they're seeing it is because it's lame, then they're kind of starting from scratch.
Versus if they see it a couple of times a year, or if it's a competition horse and they're seeing it once a month, if it's an upper level horse or, you know, a couple of times in a show season, they're going to say, Oh, well, you know, this joint didn't have this swelling in it before. Yeah. Or this. Tendon never palpated like that or this horse has never been sore in its back.
And so for me, the more you can look at the horses, the more you have a baseline on them. And then you can kind of even start to pick up on things sometimes before the rider does, because you're doing like a, very, focal clinical exam on some of these things. And that's really like prevention.
You're picking up on stuff before the horses. , lame enough or sore enough to say, okay, I can't do this anymore. So I think it's in everyone's best interest. For sure. We're just going to kind of wrap things up here. I think, Ashley, this has been incredible. Is there anything else [00:30:00] that you'd like to add to this?
Because we'd love to have you on again, I'm sure. Oh, yeah. I'd love to come on again. I don't think so. We talked so long, so. I'm happy. , I've had a nice relaxing time and we did get to do some.
Continuing ed. So you always kind of come back from those things, feeling a bit recharged. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I think that I don't really have a lot to add other than I think kind of the previous comment about having your horse looked at because it's well is gonna be more beneficial than having them looked at when they're unwell.
So I would. Encourage people to have your veterinarians out the spring before you get rocking and just do a little check in. That's great advice. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. And where can people find out more about your wellness center or get in contact with you and see all the great things that you do?
Yeah. So twin ponds farm, pa. com is our website and we actually have a really fun Instagram and Facebook page and we have a social media person and so she gets all kinds of really fun clips and interviews and get to know the horses here. There's some water treadmill content. So I encourage everyone , to follow us just because it is kind of some fun horse content for sure.
And then our sports medicine page is actually down right now, the website. How embarrassing is that? But you can get ahold of me through the farm page or you can, you can find us. So but yeah, at the Twin Ponds farm. Stuff is, is really fun. Nice. And one last question before we let you go, what is one word that you'd use to describe an OTTB?
I would say versatile, for sure. That's just, they're pretty incredible. There's not many breeds that You can train and are bred to be racehorses, and then you can see them very competitively doing eventing, dressage, pure jumping, competitive trail riding, competitive endurance, out in the hunt field.
They're pretty remarkable and I'm really happy you guys have a podcast about them. That's awesome. Thank you. Yep. If you like what you heard today, please leave as a five star review on Apple podcasts. You can follow OTTB on tap on Instagram, Facebook, and Tik TOK, and contact us with interview candidates and topic suggestions at OTTB on tap.
com. We love hearing from you. Cheers. Cheers.